voiceofsandiego.org: Opinion... A Dumb Sign

Note: This piece originally ran on Tuesday in the Scott Lewis on Politics blog.

Saturday, April 21, 2007 | OK, not long ago I called out the police union for a ridiculous ad it was running on its website that basically said officers were going to get shot if they didn't get a raise. That was absurd. They agreed and took the ad down.

It's time to turn on the outrage meter again. It's entirely appropriate for the city of San Diego's firefighters to ask for more money. It's up to city officials to decide if the city needs to give it to them.

But the firefighters are being outrageous. You might have noticed the picture we have on the front page. Notice the little sign one of the protesting firefighters is holding:

"No more FF's on food stamps," it said.

C'mon, that's absurd. Take a look at this list of the top 1,000 paid city employees. More than 380 of them are firefighters. More than 380 firefighters are making more than $95,000 a year. The fire department has a total of 1,144 positions. That means that at least one-third of the entire department is making more than $95,000 a year.

And they can retire and get a full pension at age 50. There are plenty of other benefits to the job.

They can ask for a raise, and the city can decide to give it, but the pleas of poverty seem insulting.

San Diego County reports that a family of four can have a gross income no higher than $2,043 a month to qualify for food stamps. That's $24,516 a year.

According to the proposed budget, is not a single person in the fire department -- including the non-uniform clerks -- is scheduled to earn less than that .

I called Frank De Clercq, the vice president of the local firefighters union. He said that three families of firefighters qualified for a federal program called the Special Supplemental Nutrition Program for Women, Infants and Children. To be eligible for the program next year, a firefighter would have to make less than $38,200.

The lowest paid firefighter will make $39,360 a year next year, which is a great entry level wage. And there are only 20 firefighters in that category. The vast majority of the rest of the firefighters are so-called "Fire Fighter IIs" whom the mayor wants to pay a base salary of $60,823 plus overtime. Many "Fire Fighter IIs" -- when you add overtime -- are on that list of the top paid employees in the city.

So even if you are at the lowest rung of the firefighters pay ladder, stick it out a couple of years and you'll make a far better salary. That's called incentive. That's what employers do.

De Clercq says you have to look at the cost of living in San Diego.

"When you're feeding four mouths it makes it tough. In this city, these people can't afford to rent an apartment," De Clercq said.

That's a fine argument. You can hold that firefighters deserve more -- that everyone in society deserves more pay.

But they are not poor. And they have ample opportunity to move into the middle class, if not higher.

The firefighters should learn, like the police did, that public relations stunts like claiming abject poverty in the face of overwhelming stats to the contrary only hurts them.

Please contact Scott Lewis directly with your thoughts, ideas, personal stories or tips. Or send a letter to the editor.

Didn't Supervisor Bill Horn make a similar comment about Supervisor raises? I'm all for paying our police and fire fighters fair compensation for the important jobs they do. But the guy in that picture should be repremanded and should apologize to each family in San Diego REALLY trying to live on food stamps.

Posted by Point Loman | reply to this comment
April 17, 2007 3:52 am

Typical day in the life of a fire fighter: 6:00 am: Wake up. 6:30 am: Have breakfast with my buds. 8:00am: Wash Truck. 9:00 am: Play with my hose. 10:00 am: Pick up an old lady and drive her to the hospital. Noon: Have lunch with my buds. 1:30 pm: Respond to false alarm. 3:00 pm: Stand around truck and look hot for the ladies at the supermarket. 3:30 pm: Play with the school kids that come to visit me at the fire house. 5:00 pm: Pick up old man who fell in the shower and take him to the

Posted by Basic Civics | reply to this comment
April 17, 2007 3:55 am

Yeah the sign was dumb, but the argument about however many firefighters making over $95K is missing an important fact. Several facts actually. They make that much because they have to to support a family and live in a home in San Diego. And they make that much because there aren't enough firefighters, like cops, and overtime is required to staff shifts. The guys make more, because, drum roll, they work more. They have the audacity to work extra 24 hour shifts every week. Gee, that sounds alot like having two jobs, doesn't it? Sanders has side businesses that give him a hefty chunk of change - why don't you get on him for making more than his Mayor's salary? Its the same thing

Posted by D | reply to this comment
April 17, 2007 4:06 am

Thank you for addressing this sign. My co-workers and I were just discussing how pathetic the message in the sign was. I think they diserve a raise, but they can do it more professionally. How about only sending out a pickup truck with 2 paramedics. Why does it take a tanker truck with 5 firefighter to respond to every medical call. With gas at almost $4.00 a gallon leave the tankers in the garage until really needed. How about taking away the gas hog crown victorias from the management employees and giving them hybrids. Make some sacrafices then ask for the raise.

Posted by BC | reply to this comment
April 17, 2007 4:16 am

Not to pick on Basic Civics too much, but you are as bad as the sign! How dare you spew false and misleading conjecture as to how firefighters spend their day on the job? You dare because you won't print your name! You hide behind your nickname like the guy in the picture with sunglasses. If you were to print your name, you would likely not print such inaccurate information. I am proud that the people who save our lives make money enough to support their families, whether that's $50,000 or $95,000. Give the police and firefighters the money to live comfortably so that the rest of us can live in peace! If a few rotten apples promote false circumstances such as living on food stamps or WIC, then fine, call them out and identify them as unrepresentative of the larger population.

Posted by Christopher Hall | reply to this comment
April 17, 2007 5:01 am

I agree with BC. Why do we have to send a brand new fire rig to EVERY medical emergency out there. Because Saathoff knew that it would get them more $. Why don't we get crew cab ambulances and send EMTs to the medical emergencies like every City east of the Mississippi does. There's a reason many fairly large cities still have a volunteer fire department. Modern building codes and building materials have diminshed big fires to minimal impact. When are San Dieg firefighters going to realize their scam is up. Give the money to the teachers, police, and rec leaders. Those folks actually work for a living.

Posted by Down and Out in the County | reply to this comment
April 17, 2007 5:12 am

You have no sense of humor mr. hall.

Posted by Basic Civics | reply to this comment
April 17, 2007 5:51 am

I think BC was trying to make a joke. Don't take that piece seriously. The reason firefighters work overtime is the city saves money by not hiring to fill the vacant positions. The city does not want to have to pay benefits. Firefighters generally are only scheduled to work 10 days out of the month. They have up to 21 days off. It's easier for them to work one or two days extra a week and rake in the dough. for them to cry poor ole me and say they are on food stamps is very insulting to the less fortunate yet hard working lower middle class. I also agree why send so many people to medical calls. Save the gas and wear and tear on the engines.

Posted by Happy | reply to this comment
April 17, 2007 5:57 am

Aahhhh, and so it goes...when the Cedar Fires raged we couldn't pay 'em enough, and the "thankyous" spilled off everyone's lips. But that was then, and what have you done for us lately? Weird how the same men and women can do the same job for years, and go from heroes of the city to the worthless lazy overpaid uneducated leaches Jerry Sanders and the Union Tribune want you to think they are. It's called demonization. Other leaders used that technique didn't they?

Posted by D | reply to this comment
April 17, 2007 6:24 am

Basic Civics, the piece you wrote is lacking in taste and respect for the firefighters. You should apologize for making an unfair and inaccurate stereotype. Whether or not I lack humor is irrelevant to the situation and does not add to the debate. I think what you wrote is not funny, it is hurtful, wrong and offensive. All you can do is make an ad hominem attack against me as your defense! To the other points that the fire department is considered by some to be inefficient, what with tanker trucks answering to medical calls, that is not their fault, they do not make those decisions. They do not control hiring practices, they save you when you are at your most compromsed, anguished and in great pain. I'd rather lack humor than lack conscience.

Posted by Christopher Hall | reply to this comment
April 17, 2007 6:45 am

Look we can all agree the sign was dumb. Not a smart message to send to the community. I challenge you to show me one Fireman who qualifies for foodstamps. I again would like to recommend we take some cuts in the City spending. How about the firemen working shiftwork like the police. They wouldn't have to sleep at the stations and would have more time with their families. Again why have the big trucks going to every call? Cut back on the take home vehicles that the Lt's and above get on the Police Department and Fire Department. Why should they have city cars for personal use? Why not switch many of the City vehicles to hybrids or more compact cars? I'm sure we can give our POLICE and FIREMAN more money if some of the other Pork was trimmed from the Cities budget.

Posted by BC | reply to this comment
April 17, 2007 7:09 am

*It was bound to happen…the pathetic play about your kids...it's embarrassing...BTW WIC isn't an entitlement program based solely on income (do your research). **But you brought the kids into it...so let's look closer at the City's benefit packages regarding dependents. A City employee with more than two kids gets a FREE ride when paying for a health benefit package. Premiums are paid for a spouse and two dependents...the rest of the kids are FREE!!! Come on...do the math...two kids = premiums for two dependents...and eight kids = premiums for two dependents. So who pays for the "extra" kids? Hint: NOT THE INSURANCE COMPANIES. ***What about learning to live within your means? What about taking responsibility for ALL of your offspring? It's a choice to live and work in San Diego. Maybe this isn't the place for you...so PACK UP & MOVE ON CRY BABIES!!!!

Posted by Some Things Don't Add Up | reply to this comment
April 17, 2007 7:22 am

I hear the FFs ride in the trucks for minor emergencies because if something major happens, they don't have time to return to the firehouse to get the truck to go out on the call. Makes sense, no? And no, I'm not a firefighter. Or related to one. Or dating one...

Posted by Just a thought | reply to this comment
April 17, 2007 11:51 am

FF are not hurting for cash. The OT they make is absurd. The benefits they get-like police-is even more absurd. When a FF gets a million dollar pension at age 50, making more than his average years work-with nothing more than a HS diploma-then they do not need raises-in fact we should CUT their pay-lets see how gov workers like a taste of the private sector employment pie-fire tham all like Circuit City did-hire them back at half the pay they made-see how they like the real world.

Posted by Billy Bob Henry | reply to this comment
April 17, 2007 12:52 pm

I was wondering when you were going to check in, SillyBobHenry. Your maniacal hatred of city employees kept me warm at night. I missed you. As for SomeThingsDontAddUp, I don't understand your point - you're saying the city pays the insurance premiums for all the kids? Where in the world did you make that up? What "Free Ride" are you talking about? One of your "points" appears to be that firefighters should live within their means, meaning they should know not to have children if they want the job. The demonization continues...

Posted by D | reply to this comment
April 18, 2007 12:33 am

Here is a thought, HIRE MORE FIREFIGHTERS and the $100,000 firefighter scam as BBH puts it will end! The FF's will be disciplined if they refuse the overtime. The national acredation done last year shows that the city needs 22 fire stations and 500 FF to bring up to NATIONAL standard. The reason the fire trucks respond to medical emergencies is the are now staffed w/ paramedics and only respond when they are the closest. People should not comment on things they know nothing about.

Posted by KP | reply to this comment
April 18, 2007 1:26 am

Hey D - What don't you get about the City enabling employees to have a bunch of kids by doing out free health care premiums? The "Free Ride" SomeThingsDontAddUp is referring to is the FREE healthcare premiums prvided to families with more than two dependants. The premium is the same if you have two kids or 10 kids. Don't you believe in personal responsibility? Shouldn't those who choose to have large families pay for the healthcare of each dependant? How can healthcare costs for the third/fourth/fifth/s etc. born child be free? link

Posted by Zero Population Growth | reply to this comment
April 18, 2007 2:54 am

Nice irrlevant link Mr. Zero. If you study the figures further, you should understand that with the NEW CONTRACT, the City will BEGIN to increase the healthcare funds available to officers with dependants. Where are they getting those funds? Why, they're getting it from the funds that WERE going to officers without dependants, or who were signing waivers for healthcare. That's how some newbies are going to be losing money. Hundreds of officers used to buy the mandatory life and health insurance, skip the dental and vision, and put the extra funds into their retirement. Now those extra funds are being taken from those officers, and given to the ones with kids. Costs taxpayers nothing. It comes from fellow officers.

Posted by D | reply to this comment
April 18, 2007 4:18 am

D=Over paid Fire Fighter about to go on "Food Stamps" with his million dollar pension just around the corner. Listen D- I DO NOT hate city employees. OK. Get that straight. I hate the PENSIONS these clowns are getting after working only half a career. Now stop making up baloney lies. I hate the pensions - nothing more. I get on the case of some of these folks because they don't know how good they have it-compared to the private sector where the avaerge lawyer makes LESS than the average fire fighter. Yet they still whine for MORE MORE MORE! And the FF with the food stamp sign illistrates the point perfectly. EOM

Posted by Billy Bob Henry | reply to this comment
April 18, 2007 8:30 am

I think FF's should reflect on why they took the job in the first place. It surely wasn't for the money; it was likely for the flexible hours/time off and retirement opportunity. One only need to go back to the crossroad of his/her career decision and recount the reasons for choosing a civil service job versus say, a 4 year college degree with better advancement and starting salary. I agree that SDPD needed the raise; their exodus makes a compelling argument. And I'm sorry, but a cop working a beat all day long in a car, on the street or behind a desk will not have the energy to work a second job or OT like ff's can. How many cops surf/recreate after a long shift? Advantage: Firefighter.

Posted by James | reply to this comment
April 18, 2007 9:32 am

Meanwhile BBH, you still haven't answered my question about what we're supposed to do with folks who are too old to climb hills and fight fires anymore.Seven hundred retirees and twenty straight day positions... you do the math.It's likely cheaper for the service retirement that I paid into than paying me for a tax free disability retirement five years later, no?

Posted by JF | reply to this comment
April 18, 2007 10:38 am

On the subject of fire engines going on medical aid calls... the department has tried various options, including the squad some suggested.But try telling someone that their house burned down because the local engine company had to take the Suburban back to the station and switch to big red.Why not send only two in a pickup?Well, we'd have to hire those two rather than send the existing four.Most medical aids, not only is the engine there faster, but all six folks are working.Your arguments are like those of the former city council member who suggested that we only take the new engines to 'real' fires and take the old ones to false alarms... how do ya know?

Posted by JF | reply to this comment
April 18, 2007 10:45 am

As far as the jealous comments about firefighters lounging around, playing checkers, whatever...lets inject a little reality from my life.Tomorrow night sleep in a hotel away from your family.Get three alarm clocks.Set them next to your bed set for random times.When the alarm goes off,get dressed and into your car within a minute and drive a few blocks.When you get there a)conduct the hardest workout you've ever had simulating a fire or b)perform a complex algorithm simulating a medical call.Go back to bed.Get up for the next alarm.Now go home to your family.Since you're all worried about FFs working OT, do this fifteen nights out of the month.So much for life of ease!

Posted by JF | reply to this comment
April 18, 2007 10:53 am

D - You have made a few incorrect assumptions. 1. That is Ms. Zero to you - 2. Your "fellow" officers are not HAPPY to lose their benefits to help support your kids. You also have demonstrated some lazy thinking. 1. Each employee is alloted $5,575 to use as they wish for health insurance. Choosing health insurance is required. The rest can be used to assist in the purchase health insurance for your husband (or spouse). Now this is the part I don't understand. Insurance for your spouse and first child would costs $8,301. Insurance for your spouse and eight kids still costs you $8,301. Taxpayers are picking up that cost! If you a financially affordable family of one or two kids you wouldn't need a 2,500 sq.ft. house in Temecula,more gas to commute to the city, more need taxpayer built schools etc. etc.

Posted by Zero Population Growth | reply to this comment
April 18, 2007 10:47 pm

I do agree with BBH that firefighters are not likely collecting food stamps. With that said BBH, why are you so offended when firefighters work overtime and make extra money. We all know you despise public workers and their pensions, but what bothers you so much about them working extra hours to make extra money. Would it bother you if they had a second job doing something else? If and when you respond, please take the time to tell us how many hours you worked on that "big time" case you worked on and how many hours it took you to right your Supreme Court appeal. Were you paid a salary or hourly? How did that appeal turn out? Have the courage to answer the questions about which you have boasted. If not, go away!

Posted by Citizen X | reply to this comment
April 20, 2007 9:50 am

Scott, Keep up the good work! You are a bright light in the dimness of the local media.

Posted by Mike L. | reply to this comment
April 21, 2007 1:29 am

You take issue with some anonymous firefighter's sign, but in fact, the union leader himself, speaking at that rally, shouted about having firefighters on food stamps. I heard him myself. So it isn't just some misguided firefigher with a sign - it is the union leadership making that false argument, an argument that hurts their efforts to help their firefighters by causing one to doubt their other, arguably valid, arguments. Poor decision. Poor leadership.

Posted by Glen Fiddich | reply to this comment
April 21, 2007 2:38 am

Let's boil this down folks. The last time I recruited for an entry level job that started at $50,000 a year, I got about 25 applications. The fire department just got 2000 for a job that starts at lot less. The Mayor is right, we can't afford a raise right now and if those that are working need to move on, then best wishes as there are many waiting to fill their shoes.

Posted by TS | reply to this comment
April 21, 2007 2:58 am

To ZPG and BBH, First BBH: you say you don't hate city workers in one sentence and then in the next one you call them clowns. Te sign about food stamps was stupid and not true. But if a FF wors overtime because the City does not want to hire more because they don't want to dish out more benefits, God bless them and I hope they make 200k next year. This is an economic situation that needs to be addressed at the Mayors level. STOP BLAMING CITY WORKERS BBH-IT IS A STUPID AND REDICULOUS POINT YOU KEEP ON MAKING! ZPG: Your point about family size is also stupid. It is the companies that offer those premiums for larger families- quit your whining. Sounds like you either can't have kids, don't want them, or no one will have any with you!MS.ZPG

Posted by RW | reply to this comment
April 21, 2007 4:19 am

Citizen X-listen-if you want to work a second job, or a FF does, cool. But if you want the tax payers to compensate you at 75/hour for your OT so you can rack up $100K/year-that is not going to happen. By all means-go work a second job, make as much as you want. The problem is when you start getting unlimited OT at $75/hour. The fact is if you worked a "second job" in the private sector you would be making 1/10th that, about $6-7 dollarts an hour. For the record, I work 50-70 hours/week, I do not get OT, I pay my own medical and dental, I pay my own retirement, I pay for all work related expenses, I pay the debt cocst of a 200K education, and everything else that goes with being a person in the legal field.

Posted by Billy Bob Henry | reply to this comment
April 21, 2007 4:53 am

RW - Please stop embarassing yourself. Your statement -"It is the companies that offer those premiums for larger families" is so simple-minded. Do you really believe that the health insurance companies are the ones extending free coverage for your dependants? Let me explain, health care is a form of risk management primarily used to hedge against the risk of a contingent loss. Insurance is defined as the equitable transfer of the risk of a potential loss, from one entity to another, in exchange for a premium. Insurance rate is a factor used to determine the amount, called the premium, to be charged for a certain amount of insurance coverage. Restated - your "free" healthcare premiums are NOT being paid for by the "nice" insurer but by higher premiums for everyone. And, your personal insults are unseemly and innappropriate for this forum.

Posted by Zero Population Growth | reply to this comment
April 21, 2007 6:35 am

Cool... I'm getting a raise!!!BBH said I can make 75/hr working OT.That must mean I'm up to 50/hr regular pay.WooHoo!I'm getting a huge raise!Oh, and I don't get unlimited OT, either.So if I work a second job, can I qualify for Social Security?Or is that double dipping?TS, you're making the mistake of believing what the mayor says.Yes, 2000 applications were submitted, but only 575 were qualified for the written test.By the time the whole process is over and other agencies have their pick of applicants SDFD will be lucky to fill the academies they need.

Posted by JF | reply to this comment
April 21, 2007 7:37 am

O'K everbody, I apologize. I am really just a frustrated reject that could'nt get hired as a cop or a firefighter. I sometimes go through fits of rage and jealousy when I don't get my Ridalin and Prozac mixed together just right. When that happens I just tend to eat more and complain about everything and everyone around me. Please send me an email referral so that I can seek some professional help. I need a psychiatrist! Please help!

Posted by Billy Bob Henry II | reply to this comment
April 21, 2007 10:57 am

Good for you BBH. The first step is admitting your problems. We're all in your corner and hope you get well soon. Good luck.

Posted by Citizen X | reply to this comment
April 21, 2007 12:06 pm

JF-I guarantee you this, when you count in your benefits-such as regular healthcare, retirement healthcare and retirement pension, vacation/sick/holida pay, your regular hourly wage is at LEAST $50/hour. So, OT would then be about $75/hour. Your FULL compensation package, everything counted, is how I come up with the $75/hour OT figure. And to be honest, it might be low. As for your Social Security comments-you have "opted" out of the "minimal" SS system to be in the "Cadillac" system, so that is not a good argument to make. You do not get SS because you are in a system that is literally 20 times better. I know of NO PRIVATE SECTOR JOB that allows hourly workers to make 100K/year with OT. Not one. If you do, or anyone else does, please name it. Jobs I worked going through college would nto even hire F/T workers because of benefit costs.

Posted by Billy Bob Henry | reply to this comment
April 21, 2007 2:59 pm

Scott. When you called me about this foodstamp issue ,I offered to have the ladies that where interviewed about being on foodstamps call you. Obviously, the television reporters that interviewed them verified the information before reporting it. I am waiting for you to do the same. Maybe you will recant some of your comments when they show you their WIC program I.D. and related paperwork. I guess if the sign was untruthful you would have a case. The fact is, there are firefighter families that qualify and are in the WIC program. We will have to see if they no longer qualify next year based on the budget #'s you quote from the '08 budget. I think you will see a lot of the same old smoke and mirrors, just new players holding the mirrors.

Posted by Frank De Clercq | reply to this comment
April 22, 2007 12:11 am

Um, BBH, I guarantee you this: overtime doesn't pay medical, retirement, extra vacation or any benefits at all, except the pay.Even the half time is taken away if an individual has taken time off.Example, I worked OT the other day.I'll get paid only the straight time because I took my own annual leave to go to school.So rather than pay another full time firefighter all of the extra stuff the city gets off with only paying my regular rate.So to be honest, once again, you're full of it.

Posted by JF | reply to this comment
April 22, 2007 10:58 am

JF-when the half time is taken away-that would be use of "comp time", and that of course does not qualify for O/T. Now, back to my man issus. You guys/gals at SDFD have great jobs, everyone knows that. That is the reason FF jobs are the #1 civil service jobs. EVERYONE would like to haver that job. And to be honest, 90% of the applicants could do it. Now-I want you to name ONE, just one, blue collar job in the private sector that pasy 100K/year with O/T. We won't even go into the cash value of the pension benefits. Those jobs DO NOT exist in the private sector. It just doesn't happen. Only in the Gov will you find that kind of nonsense. But please, prove me wrong.

Posted by Billy Bob Henry | reply to this comment
April 22, 2007 1:28 pm

BBH, that's what I'm telling you.There is no comp time in that instance, no benefits, no nothing.You're professing to know what you're ignorant about.Second, firefighting can be dirty blue collar work, but it's a lot more than that.All employees are medically licensed, unlike blue collar professions.Employee must have rudimentary knowledge of many different trades, including the law and have journey level knowledge of a few more.So a comparison to say a construction laborer isn't apples to apples.However, in last week's cafe, it was stated that a journey carpenter makes 32/hr.Which is more than I do.I don't know how much OT they get.

Posted by JF | reply to this comment
April 23, 2007 6:36 am

(part 2) 90% of applicants could NOT do this job.My academy had a 30% failure rate.And that's after the selection process.As I've mentioned several times, this job is a lot tougher than it looks.The academy knowledge is nothing.But to be good at a firefighting career, one must have building construction and engineering skills, maintain a medical license, have strong knowledge of pertinent laws, know a little about all the different trades, be able to write reports... much more than what you apparently look down upon as 'blue collar'.I suppose you could eke by without all that, but you'd be a crappy firefighter.Go read Mike Rose.

Posted by JF | reply to this comment
April 23, 2007 6:42 am

Scott- Can you find out where the firefighetres are writing their letters and editorials for the Voice and the U-T? My guess is they are doing this on City (read taxpayer) time. How many employees of any jurisdiction or corporation are able to write opinion pieces and GET PAID for it? Give me a break.

Posted by City Watcher | reply to this comment
April 23, 2007 8:29 pm

City Watcher.Thanks for your concern.I'm writing from home.Before I volunteer ten hours of work to the city today in violation of FLSA.This FD would absolutely fold if folks like me didn't step up to the plate and volunteer time to make it work.

Posted by JF | reply to this comment
April 23, 2007 9:43 pm

Mizzzz Zero..you throw alot of words around and try to sound educated, but you can't seem to grasp things. First off, that $5.5K is going down to $4.somethingK...Seco the insurance company sells its policies at the price it sees fit. For example, it can sell a policy for one adult for $5k, add 1 dependant and it goes up to $6k. Add another, it goes up to $8K. For whatever reason, financial I am certain, the company sees fit not to charge any more for more than two children. The city and taxpayer does not support anyone's kids. The employee buys the policy, and the company pays the bills (along with a hefty employee co-pay). Geez, SillyBob hates us getting paid, and Zero hates our kids!!

Posted by D | reply to this comment
April 24, 2007 12:22 am

As for you SillyBobHenry, I'll try to make it simple enough...say the boss (city) must have 4 dogwalkers on duty every day of the work week. Two work 6am to 6pm, two work 6pm to 6am. Even though the boss knows he is mandated to have 4 dogwalkers, he only hires three. That leaves one dogwalking shift open every day of the work week. One of the three dogwlakers MUST work an extra shift every day of the work week. The boss does this because it is cheaper to pay an overtime shift every day than it is to hire another dogwalker. Now why, pray tell, would anyone with normal brain function feel disdain for the dogwalker who works extra shifts every week for actually accepting the payment for their services?

Posted by D | reply to this comment
April 24, 2007 12:38 am

I get quite a chuckle reading some of these posts about how difficult being a FF is. Come on, let's get real here. It is a very coveted job - especially to work in a coastal CA city. - how much on duty time is actually spent working and how much sleeping/tv/resting? that makes a difference. - how many actual no kidding fires to SDFF respond to per month in the city? - explain to me why it's more cost effective to use O/T to fill known permanent vacancies rather than hire an extra body? O/T should be used for UNPLANNED short term vacancy - not permanent. If it's cheaper to under hire and use O/T than why not starting laying off half the force and continue using O/T for the rest?

Posted by No Raise for overpad FF! | reply to this comment
April 24, 2007 7:06 am

No raise, since you asked, as you wrote this firefighters here in the City of San Diego were fighting two simultaneous structure fires.With just those two small fires about a quarter of the city's firefighting resources were tapped.Guess you missed the press conference a couple of months ago about how fires were up 70% in the city.And since you asked about sleep, I average about four hours/night at work.Usually split up by calls.Not every station is that busy, but we're at about the midpoint of run volume.Many are busier.

Posted by JF | reply to this comment
April 24, 2007 10:05 am

I find that a bit suspicious. I lived next to the Carmel Valley FD station for 4 years and can count the amount of times on one hand that trucks were responding per month. 4 hours a day of sleep? Then I'm sure you were in no shape to respond to any fire. So the other 20 hours of the day you were gainfully employed responding to fires or eating or doing something required by the job? You are certainly a minority compared to the 4 SD FFs I used to bike ride with weekly or the ones in my neighborhood. If you're truly getting 4 hours of sleep out of every 24 hour period 10-12 times a month than you should quit - seriously - and work for another FD because you will die young.

Posted by No Raise | reply to this comment
April 25, 2007 5:58 am

No Raise... that's what we've been trying to tell the public.Not every part of the city is sunshine and roses like Carmel Valley.There's a reason firefighters have such a high rate of heart disease (New England Journal of Medicine last month).Stress is a killer.The average lifespan of a firefighter is much less than the general public, hence the early retirement.

Posted by JF | reply to this comment
April 25, 2007 6:50 am

I've no doubt that FF in large urban cities (San Diego is not) face many challenges but seriously - how many large fires are in SD? The same report you cite says that 1-5% of a FF career is spent fighting fires - I'd say SDFF are around the 1%. I don't have any statistics but I'd love to see any you have. Die young? I'll tell you what then explain why the job is so lucrative and why so many people apply for positions. That's not innuendo - those are the hard facts. Firefighting is a great job and in CA the benefits probably outweigh any dying young comments - almost full pay pension at age 50! That's incredible - there are several other jobs out there with much greater risk factors than FF and none get near the benefits. Supplyanddemand!

Posted by No Raise | reply to this comment
April 25, 2007 7:19 am

No raise, San Diego not a large urban city?Have you driven south of 56 lately?New York it's not, but tell me if you want to hang out on Alpha Street at midnight on a Saturday.Full pay at 50?Not likely, you're buying in to the lies told by the U-T and the mayor.Quick, you do the math.3%x years of service at 50.Average age at hire = 27.What's the percentage? 69% of pay, that's what.You say cut pay until there are no more applicants...supply and demand, right?Should your lovely home in Carmel Valley catch fire, who do you want showing up?The bottom of the barrel?Or the cream of the crop?

Posted by JF | reply to this comment
April 25, 2007 8:42 am

I've lived in LA, NYC, and Baltimore - that's right San Diego is not a large urban city. Average age of hire 27? So what were they doing for the first 9 years since high school since most firemen don't waste their time in college. Regardless if one starts at age 21 - that's almost 90%. In reality most pensions are capped at far less than 90% (I still have a private pension and it's capped at 50%). Heck even the military only gets 2.5% a year unless they go beyond 20 yrs. Yes I absolutely want to depend on supply and demand. In the public industry where you have to legitimize your raises, you should only get one if a) city is boiling over with cash and will sustain it or b) the city needs to give you one to retain you.

Posted by No Raise | reply to this comment
April 25, 2007 12:14 pm

No Raise, please provide proof for your claim that most firefighters don't go to college.Most of the young people I see hired today have at least an AS degree.Many come from professional fields, many from the trades.Many come from the resource agencies, i.e. CDF and USFS.As I read it, the military system is 2% for the first 20, then 3.5% after that.Calculated for me (I came on young so my city percentage is higher) I'd hit the 68% with the military and 81% with the city at age 50.Of course, the military also gets a 30,000 bonus after 15 years... still waiting for my bonus.Personally, I think the military should be paid better, as opposed to paying contractors 100K/year to do the same job.

Posted by JF | reply to this comment
April 25, 2007 11:29 pm

Military for most is 2.5%/yr for the first 20 yrs - 2.0% went away awhile ago (13 yrs active duty and still reserves). Never heard of any bonus at 15 yrs - those are time specific that vary depending on situations and I don't know anybody with a $30,000 bonus. I have no proof of FF degrees but I know they are rarely required (req'd anywhere?) and to some extent salary should be based on req'd education/experience Are their specific requirements on either to be hired as a SDFF? The military requires none either for enlisted ranks. Regardless if you want more pay, call the bluff - let's see guys start leaving in droves as has been threatened - I'll believe it when I see it but regardless I'm not worried about it.

Posted by No Raise | reply to this comment
April 27, 2007 4:11 am

No Raise, look here link for military retirement comparison.You're correct in stating that the MQs typically don't require a degree, but when you're in competition with a few thousand other folks, practicality says you'd better have one.Getting qualified candidates is the key.I could put a mop in the seat, but I'm not sure that'd do the job.As far as folks leaving, personally I don't want to see it come to that.I don't want to see talented, qualified individuals leave this city.But I was told that 20+ of our folks were just at one of the many physical tests that LA County is giving.We'll see.

Posted by JF | reply to this comment
April 27, 2007 10:58 am

A Dumb Sign

By Scott Lewis