I'm not sure what you're comparing here. Is one hour of operation at the main library in San Diego being compared to one hour of operation at a small branch library? Of course a bigger library would need more employees. They are serving a lot more people with a lot more books.

Posted by Maura Larkins | reply to this comment
July 20, 2007 4:15 am

The County's per capita spending is lower because it does not need to operate a Central Library. The City's Central Library serves both City and County residents, so the County does not need to duplicate this costly resource. The Central Library purchases and houses many costly, unique resources and provide professional and paraprofessional staff that offer high level reference service to the public, regardless of where they reside. The roles of city and county library systems are quite different, and therefore these comparisons need to be taken in context.

Posted by Library Supporter | reply to this comment
July 20, 2007 4:32 am

Maura - these are SYSTEM wide costs. So to operate the County's system for one hour it costs $436. To operate the City's it costs $544. City has 2 more branches then the county. COunty serves 1.0 million; City 1.3. Material purchases almost identical (again, difference is # of staff). SD has much higher reference demands (supporter's point). So that is at least one rub - do we want a system to support "costly, unique resources and provide professional and paraprofessional staff that offer high level reference service to the public". Or maybe what most residents want is their branch library open on a sunday so their kid can check out a copy of Where the Wild Things Are without taking off time from work.

Posted by Erik Bruvold | reply to this comment
July 20, 2007 4:40 am

That is the BIG problem with these so-called studies. The people performing these studies don't know the important details about which the Library Supporter commented. Crunching numbers and hours without taking into consideration the differences in key functions of the various libraries is a waste of time and gives the public an artificial viewpoint of library operational costs within the city. Without including input from the staff performing the services at the various libraries, these studies are invalid and pointless, as well as incredibly misleading.

Posted by Cheeky | reply to this comment
July 20, 2007 4:47 am

ALL we did was take numbers from the California State Library - which for some reason deemed it important to collect and publish them. It might be a fair criticsm to say that the County is providing less services compared to what the City is providing. The next question, however, is to ask the public "do you want these extra services which cost you $9 million more?"

Posted by Erik Bruvold | reply to this comment
July 20, 2007 5:21 am

There are many ways to measure library usage. First,how many people come in the door in the same hours? When your kids need to do a report using those specialized library Reference resources that don't check out, how often do they get help from a librarian? Do you or your children use the library databases, either at the library or from home when the library is closed and your kid waited until the last minute to do research? All these resources are part of the cost of operating a facility. The Central Library sees thousands of patrons per day! Some SD branches have 1,500 people a day enter the library, mostly your kids who need help to do their homework and a safe place to be after school. All libraries are valuable and yes, they should all have longer hours. Tell that to your representatives.

Posted by Laurie Macrae | reply to this comment
July 20, 2007 5:46 am

Remember, that $9 million more is providing service to the City, the County, the other cities within the County such as Chula Vista, Oceanside, etc. and Imperial County. It is fine to have branches to provide copies of books for children, but what about the high school student that needs to do in-depth research and can't check out materials from college libraries? What about a small business person who need to do patent searches or need to research some difficult to find laws governing their company? And what about the person with limited means that cannot afford that obscure item which is not available in a small branch collection? Cheeky is correct in saying that people need to understand the role of the Central Library before passing judgement.

Posted by Library Supporter | reply to this comment
July 20, 2007 6:07 am

Does the City of San Diego have any libraries in strip malls and storefronts? The County doesn't seem hung up on building fancy buildings to house books. The City seems to have a need to build bigger and bigger monuments to books that don't contain as many books as the old libraries. They are more community centers. Visit the Casa de Oro library for a sense of how the County saves some money on libraries.

Posted by Andy | reply to this comment
July 20, 2007 9:41 am

I would ask Eric to refrain from comparing a child's form of checking out a book with an adult's form of reference and research support. It is creating a wedge issue and promoting a divisive environment, pitting kids against adults. Eric said: "do we want a system to support "costly, unique resources and provide professional and paraprofessional staff that offer high level reference service to the public". Or maybe what most residents want is their branch library open on a sunday so their kid can check out a copy of Where the Wild Things Are without taking off time from work." What an awful thing to say.

Posted by Christopher Hall | reply to this comment
July 20, 2007 9:48 am

Some observations....A) When did the citizens of San Diego "vote" to provide research services to the rest of county residents? B) Interestingly enough, the county and the city spend almost the same amount on materials(pg 37 of the report)..C) City spends more on "specialized" research services, County a million more on public access PCs (pg44)..D) County served 46K MORE children 0 to 14 then the city (pg. 65)...E) UCSD and SDSU have some of the largest collections in their respective systems. Finally to Chris's point. Politics and Policy are about tradeoffs. If resources were unlimited we wouldn't have to say things you find "horrible". But in the real world we do and when we can't pay police officers enough to keep them here or fix pot holes maybe we should ask ourselves how many people are really served for our additional $9,000,000?

Posted by Erik Bruvold | reply to this comment
July 20, 2007 11:03 am

Unlike the City library, the County library extends its collection by membership with university libraries as part of something called "The Circut" Maybe City's problem is the egocentric notion that it must be everything to everyone instead of taking advantage of cooperative ventures that stretch limited funding. Do libraries need to be larger and larger or are the big empty spaces following the model of people building mansion sized houses in some pathetic need to seem wealthy by size instead of having substance? When did we decide librarie have to be art galleries or theaters? Why are new ones built with high energy wasting ceilings whose vacuous space is for the sake of admiration only? The mission of the library is to provide everything for free but maybe the library, and the public, need a reality check.

Posted by Leanne | reply to this comment
July 20, 2007 11:45 am

Chris Hall said: "I would ask Eric to refrain from comparing a child's form of checking out a book with an adult's form of reference and research support. It is creating a wedge issue and promoting a divisive environment, pitting kids against adults. " Oh please. I want a branch library open on Sunday so that I can take my kid to get a book.

Posted by Larry | reply to this comment
July 20, 2007 9:26 pm

1)County users have greater services AND resources for less $. System provides on-line ability to search/request/renew e-notifications/remi free “Books by Mail” service to those in need link , and coming soon, online payment. Cardholders can manage accounts online. With one centralized search, the same online services extend into UCSD, SDSU, USD, CS San Marcos – delivered to your local branch (http://130.191.17.20/ ). Why is the City absent in the SD Library Consortium Circuit? (2)Re. role of a library thread, read the Project for Public Places link . I’d reframe the question to ask what the public wants: the centralized services (above) that serve all users vs a single central location. Love to see a cost comparison. (3) City website designers, please study link for useful, easy to find info!

Posted by Lifelong Library User | reply to this comment
July 20, 2007 11:25 pm

I see some are pushing the debate off the table to the right and now bring up the very existence of having a main library. At the least, others are suggesting slimming down main library functions to such a degree that the services are limited to functions community branches serve. All of this is unacceptable, particularly when now the police and pot holes are put onto the table as issues: funding the library construction is not from the General fund, it is from CCDC redevelopment taxes, a state grant and private donations. I have supported a ballpark style vote on the new library as a method to move decisively one way or the other on this project, and I say bring it on. Put construction and operations costs on the ballot and let the people vote.

Posted by Christopher Hall | reply to this comment
July 21, 2007 3:11 am

So what happens if people vote for a new library, the way they do for new stadiums, without thought for current and future costs of maintenance and operations? We put a lot of confidence in the will of the people but the public asks for a lot more than it wants to pay for. The current available funding for the main library is barely enough to build one floor, much less all the pretty enhancements. Oh, and anyone mention funding books and other materials? Databases? Computers that everyone can use for free, of course. There is a cost, and the public wants it all, and demands more. For free. The library (and the City) is caught in a bind by no one having the courage to say "no" to the minority who vote and/or pay for the attention of the politicians.

Posted by Leanne | reply to this comment
July 21, 2007 8:20 am

Unfortunately, the study that was referenced covered '05 to '06, those figures are no longer close to accurate since both systems have undergone alot of change in the short span since. I'd have to say that most people need some sort of assistance at a library and all reasonable requests are equally valid. Every patron deserves equal treatment regardless of age or any other demographic they may fall into. THE LOSS OF STAFF MEANS LESS SERVICE! It's not only research questions and finding the right book. What about computer questions, story times, support of book clubs, meeting rooms, patnerships with schools, book sales, etc., etc. etc.. A good question is "What does the community expect it's library to be, a community center for learning and congregation or an empty shell with minimal service (and materials)?"

Posted by Joe | reply to this comment
July 22, 2007 2:06 am

A quick count from the County's website shows they currently have 32 libraries, ten of which are open on Sunday, the hours are always from 1 to 5. That doesn't seem much better than the City. Also, the County seems to operate every library that is not in the City system. For instance, the La Mesa library is on the County's list. Why doesn't the City of La Mesa fund that? Would it be prudent to have one County library system and get the City out of the library business altogether. As a taxpayer, I am all for consolidating those services that make sense. Then there wouldn't have to be all this interagency exchange of books, etc. One County = One library system. But then, how would City Councilmembers be remembered, if not for helping build libraries in their districts?

Posted by Andy | reply to this comment
July 22, 2007 4:52 am

Eric, You need to do some research to understand the role of the public library in California. All public libraries provide free reference services as a requirement of obtaining State and Federal funding. And no, using the Circuit to borrow books from universities will not replace the materials or services available at the Central Library. Universities also have specialized collections which are designed to meet the needs of their students and university researchers. It is very different than the collection in a public main library. City, County, State and academic libraries work together to support eachother's services and avoid duplication. And as others have noted, public libraries provide far more than just books - SDPL alone has over 700 computers with free Internet access that are in use at all times, and over 165,000 people attend free educational and cultural programs.

Posted by Library Supporter | reply to this comment
July 22, 2007 11:43 pm

Christopher Hall stated "I would ask Eric to refrain from comparing a child's form of checking out a book with an adult's form of reference and research support. It is creating a wedge issue and promoting a divisive environment, pitting kids against adults." I completely disagree with your position. After reading his post I felt no enmity toward child or adult. LOL! Are you kidding me... a wedge issue? He brought up a very good point. He's simply asking what do City residents prefer... what is in demand... and what is practical at this point in time, since the City is close to bankruptcy. Beggars can't be choosers when there's no money. Perhaps, when the 'leaders' of this City learns fiscal responsibility, a new library may see the light of day.

Posted by Bud | reply to this comment
July 23, 2007 12:09 am

The anti-library hype amazes me. We should have been so careful in cost analysis and returns on, uh, pardon me while I gag on the word, investment, when we got suckered for the ballpark. Even though the County Library system has made more advances in the last two years than SDPL and has an arguably more sophisticated system overall, the human services at the SDPL are hard to beat. Those librarians are excellent at what they do and do their utmost to help patrons daily. The dimes versus dollars argument fails to take into account the human element of service---as it usually does. If I had my way, they would add the three stories to the main branch that the building was intended to take, raid money for it from VOSD's budget, use Lewis as a doorman there, and make it mandatory for every schoolkid to get library cards.

Posted by Jeez Louise | reply to this comment
July 23, 2007 12:34 am

""""Or maybe what most residents want is their branch library open on a sunday so their kid can check out a copy of """Where the Wild Things Are""" without taking off time from work."""".. .. .. .. Best Childrens Book Ever Written And Best Book I Ever Read!

Posted by Billy! Bob!! Henry!!! | reply to this comment
July 23, 2007 10:36 am

" " " Or maybe what most residents want is their branch library open on a sunday so their kid can check out a copy of ---- Where the Wild Things Are--- without taking off time from work" " "... .. .. .. Best Childrens Book Ever Written And Best Book I Ever Read!

Posted by Billy! Bob!! Henry!!! | reply to this comment
July 23, 2007 10:36 am

I've lived in the city all of my life. I live nearest to a city branch (Rancho Pen) but nearly always go to a county branch (Poway, RB, etc.) to check out books, take my kids, do research, etc. The reason? The county staff are MUCH nicer and more helpful. I've had city staff snub my children when they asked for help, refuse us directions, be rude when we dared not know where things were, etc. Maybe the city should take some of that extra money they are spending and train their staff a little better. As for that much vaunted downtown "research" library; in 40 some odd years of living here mself, and raising two children (one who is now at UCSD) I have never, never needed a book that was at the city's central library. It seems like a huge waste of money and resources.

Posted by Elizabeth | reply to this comment
July 24, 2007 7:57 pm

STOP!!! I’m sorry for reaching this late, but there’s a small matter that needs attention. As Bruvold himself points out above, the City Library serves a greater population than the County. Now, this seems relevant, right? So, calculator and more precise stats in hand, I checked: the costs to the City per hour open, per person are $0.000415, and for the County they are $0.000424. In other words, County residents pay MORE per hour open than City residents. So, the Library IS inefficient and has misplaced its priorities. But it's the County, not the City! Buvold and Vasquez have got the wrong Library! (But don't worry too much about them, folks; the standards at think tanks are different than for you and me.) Note: my figures use 2006 population estimates, but the comparison was true for 2000 data as well.

Posted by Jeffrey Davis | reply to this comment
July 26, 2007 2:04 am

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